lets see what happens
(8:09:30 PM) William Maggos: you have too many IM accounts
(8:09:44 PM) joe hahn: hah. yea.. i logged into all my old ones to see what happenes
(8:10:11 PM) William Maggos: http://publicpatron.org/?page_id=2
(8:10:16 PM) William Maggos: does that make sense?
(8:18:51 PM) joe hahn: +
(8:19:05 PM) William Maggos: what do you think?
(8:19:09 PM) joe hahn: check out an app called freemind. ive been using it for brainstorming
(8:20:00 PM) joe hahn: i like it. how small could transactions be/
(8:20:00 PM) joe hahn: ?
(8:20:36 PM) joe hahn: the first thing i thoguht of was somethign that integrates with paypal, running on the taskbar that can communicate with a standardized website widget or something
(8:21:05 PM) William Maggos: well, i think id limit fans to at least $5 a month
(8:21:49 PM) joe hahn: one would have to spend at least $5 a month or else the remainder is donated to charity or something ?
(8:22:06 PM) William Maggos: i didnt think of how low the distribution to artists would be
(8:22:29 PM) William Maggos: maybe it only gets distributed once it gets to be over $5…
(8:23:26 PM) William Maggos: when the fan sets up the monthly donation, you could use paypal or a cc…
(8:23:48 PM) joe hahn: aah.. google ads owes me about eighty dollars.. they pay out at 100. its taken about two years to get there 😛
(8:24:14 PM) joe hahn: i was thinking the fan should be encouraged to spend
(8:24:16 PM) William Maggos: audioscrobbler (what last.fm uses) is open source
(8:24:33 PM) William Maggos: shouldnt be hard to make it track time and work for video
(8:24:59 PM) William Maggos: ive been thinkin about how to encourage the fan to donate more per month
(8:25:21 PM) joe hahn: what if 30min of content takes 30sec to download and the fan disconnects while listening to the 29:30 remaining?
(8:25:24 PM) William Maggos: the site would tell you your DPM (donation per minute)
(8:26:58 PM) William Maggos: you wouldnt always have to be connected, just like last.fm knows what i listened to on my ipod
(8:29:24 PM) William Maggos: it would be based on what you actually listened to, as directly as possible
(8:29:32 PM) joe hahn: +
(8:30:19 PM) joe hahn: id be interested in getting in on this if you are seeking to form a team or anything
(8:30:34 PM) joe hahn: im also about to go with digital distro for PROTMAN and other releases of mine
(8:31:02 PM) William Maggos: thanks, im trying to figure out the pieces
(8:32:20 PM) William Maggos: im gonna try to use the website to lay it all out
(8:33:34 PM) joe hahn: ive got a fatty new server, too
(8:36:02 PM) joe hahn: so you arent trying to repair or replace the itunes model.. you just want to have something a little more pinko for people who want to give people more choice in deciding the value of media so the consumers can spend what they want, and the producers can avoid a greedy middleman?
(8:36:29 PM) joe hahn: btw.. scott mcloud is speaking at columbia soon
(8:37:54 PM) joe hahn: def check this out http://www.scottmccloud.com/comics/icst/icst-5/icst-5.html
(8:38:01 PM) joe hahn: though it is dated like it says
(8:41:01 PM) joe hahn has left the conversation.
(9:19:10 PM) William Maggos: The service would not store or distribute content, but it would facilitate the free distribution of content that the internet was built for.
(9:19:25 PM) William Maggos: not sure if that was clear, and i added it to the post.
(9:19:26 PM) joe hahn: riiight
(9:20:03 PM) William Maggos: i asked clint what he thought of it too, and i think he was confused.
(9:20:04 PM) joe hahn: its strange for me to wrap my head around a little since im so used to being able to be so DIY about hosting my own content
(9:20:31 PM) William Maggos: but you give away your stuff, right?
(9:20:54 PM) William Maggos: this just makes it as easy as possible for fans to support you
(9:21:54 PM) William Maggos: im actually trying to replace just about everything, for those with a broadband connection
(9:22:20 PM) William Maggos: but thats longterm, it plays on the independent artists in audio and video at first
(9:23:14 PM) William Maggos: no need for cable tv or labels or netflix if it takes off
(9:23:19 PM) joe hahn: what if I want to decided the price?
(9:23:26 PM) joe hahn: but keep it reasonable
(9:23:56 PM) William Maggos: well, how you get your stuff to the fan is up to you
(9:24:13 PM) William Maggos: but the way of the internet, kinda hard to stop
(9:24:30 PM) joe hahn: ex: i intend to give away mp3s, but if people/DJs want flac or wav, i decide.. i suppose in that instance the casual listeners can tip me for mp3s
(9:24:43 PM) joe hahn: true true true
(9:24:45 PM) William Maggos: and this system would encourage you to put it out free, if the DPM becomes high enough
(9:25:03 PM) joe hahn: so it would give even pirates a convenient chance to tip
(9:25:16 PM) William Maggos: people stumble upon it and they are using PP, you get paid
(9:26:29 PM) William Maggos: its all about the DPM of the people who listen to your stuff, and its automatic
(9:27:04 PM) joe hahn: lately ive been paying for software more often.. and donating where they allow you to donate whatever you wish via paypal
(9:27:11 PM) William Maggos: and the fan doesnt really see any additional cost, just whatever they are willing to donate per month
(9:27:16 PM) joe hahn: but its only for applications where i can donate or pay less than $20
(9:27:50 PM) William Maggos: and the neat thing is their donation is actually gonna go directly to the creators of the stuff they listen or watch, no middlemen
(9:28:19 PM) William Maggos: that means if they want more of it, they have direct incentive to donate more per month
(9:29:30 PM) William Maggos: for the fan, its like a cable or netflix subscription
(9:31:05 PM) joe hahn: hmmm
(9:31:16 PM) William Maggos: and if you only listen to one album all month, they get all your money
(9:31:29 PM) joe hahn: what about this instance………….
(9:31:37 PM) joe hahn: when i am seeking music to DJ
(9:32:01 PM) joe hahn: i enqueue the download of hundreds of mp3s and wait a day or so
(9:32:18 PM) joe hahn: the next day i take the hundred or so that have completed, and put them into a folder on my computer
(9:33:09 PM) joe hahn: i then listen to about fifteen seconds of each. the beginning, skip to the middle for five seconds, then somewhere in the last third
(9:33:36 PM) joe hahn: deciding if i want to listen further or DJ it later.. i put it into a new folder or tag it, rate it with more stars etc
(9:34:34 PM) joe hahn: i then might put them on a cd for use in a CDJ as cd audio or mp3s. or i might use a different computer for DJing, or even an SD card for listening in my car stereo
(9:35:38 PM) William Maggos: its up to you and your media player, but you never pay more than you want to per month
(9:36:28 PM) William Maggos: whatever you play it in, if you can install the plugin there, it would track the time you actually listen and what you listen to
(9:38:29 PM) William Maggos: instead of this crappy itunes or other system, you can do whatever you want with the files
(9:40:05 PM) William Maggos: those 15 secs of each song are registered if you listen in a media player with the PP plugin installed, but you dont pay anymore per month
(9:40:05 PM) joe hahn: I am currently idle.
(9:42:09 PM) William Maggos: your monthly donation is always whatever you choose to pay, and the creators of those tracks just get some money that month and the creators of other files that you listen or watch get a little less
(9:57:37 PM) joe hahn: very interesting
(9:58:57 PM) joe hahn: i was just talking to rita about this. i sort of broke it down as trying to find a way to maximize profit to the artist while accepting the inevitability and ubiquity of “piracy”
(9:59:31 PM) William Maggos: yep, thats about it
(9:59:43 PM) William Maggos: i modified the post to say that more clearly
(10:00:00 PM) William Maggos: The internet is not only the perfect distribution system for text and images, but also for audio and video. The main problem left is how to fairly reimburse the creators of all this great content, while maintaining the open nature of the internet for those of us who just want to watch or listen. We dont need another service or method to store or distribute content, but we do need to better facilitate the free distribution of content that the internet was built for.
(10:01:02 PM) William Maggos: damnit, hold up, somehow i lost the important part
(10:03:25 PM) joe hahn: 😛
(10:03:53 PM) joe hahn: i have 40,000 myspace friends btw if you ever want some targeted publicity
(10:04:06 PM) joe hahn: for my protman music page
(10:04:47 PM) William Maggos: nice, not yet, but a big part of this going to be getting the creators to tell their fans about it
(10:05:07 PM) joe hahn: +
(10:05:23 PM) joe hahn: also.. i take a lot of consideration into the naming of the mp3s i make available
(10:05:48 PM) joe hahn: though i guess ive been pretty dumb about id3 tags
(10:10:05 PM) William Maggos: The internet is not only the perfect distribution system for text and images, but also for audio and video. The main problem left is how to fairly reimburse the creators of all this great content, while maintaining the open nature of the internet for those of us who just want to watch or listen. What we need to do is acceptthat the internet is the perfect system for the free distribution of content , and fans are gonna need to find a better way to support the creators of the stuff they love if only for the selfish reason that they want more of it. We don’t need another service or method to store or distribute content, but we do need a new way to support artists that is internet-friendly.
(10:40:09 PM) joe hahn: what do you think about the polarization of the people who opt-in vs the people who opt-out and are villified by the opt-inners?
(11:16:46 PM) William Maggos: id love to set up a caste system, but unfortunately, your fan account would be private
(11:16:56 PM) William Maggos: creator accounts would be very public
(11:17:29 PM) William Maggos: id love to somehow give a greater incentive to opt-in and have a high DPM
(11:17:41 PM) joe hahn: thats another thing i was gonna ask about the privacy of what you listen to. lastfm makes what you listen to public
(11:18:00 PM) William Maggos: right, on our system, it would be private i think
(11:19:53 PM) William Maggos: it would be great to be able to incentivize large buy-in by somehow letting artists give higher donators first access at tickets or something, mabye
(11:20:40 PM) joe hahn: do you think there are any ways artists could exploit the system
(11:20:42 PM) joe hahn: ?
(11:21:02 PM) joe hahn: such as releasing the same content under different names. i suppose there could be backlash from the listeners
(11:21:38 PM) joe hahn: though it guess it is time based, and not per-track like lastfm
(11:21:46 PM) joe hahn: gotta reboot. btb
(11:21:47 PM) joe hahn: brb
Pretty simple. I am starting a new blog at cultureburn dot org. That will be my new home, aka the site where I bitch about the state of the world esp as it comes to media and culture and how the internet could really put things right if we understand its true potential as infrastructure and build off of it in the right way. I’m gonna move most of the old posts from here over there as well.
The plan for publicpatron dot org is to still be the home of one of those pieces that builds off of the internet as cultural infrastructure. Like I have written before, a non-profit tip jar. But my rants will be moved over to the new site while I try to turn this site into the place that provides the service. Bout it.
Radio Paradise does internet radio right. And the way they pay for it, well, it basically demonstrates that the Public Patron model could work. From their support page:
Our plan is simple: we create the best station we possibly can, refrain from contaminating it with advertising, and then ask you to pay us what you think it’s worth. So far it seems to be working out nicely. We’re not likely to get rich this way, but that’s not our goal.
Here at RP we’re not just non-commercial. We’re anti-commercial. We feel that quality radio programming and advertising just cannot co-exist. We also choose to refrain from forcibly extracting money from you by charging subscription fees. We leave it up to you to decide what our service is worth to you.
Your voluntary support enables us to devote all of our time and energy to making RP the best station possible – and pays for the bandwidth, equipment and services required to keep the station online, and for the rather substantial copyright royalties we are required to pay.
The amount of your contribution is up to you – based on your opinion of how much you enjoy RP & what you can afford. A number of listeners have adopted the “one hour’s wages per month” formula – some can afford to send even more than that (thanks!), others can afford only $5 per month.
We particularly appreciate automatic monthly, quarterly or annual support payments. The more regular ongoing support we receive in that fashion the less we have to bug you on the air. Please consider choosing that option on the support form.
And, as always, we understand that contributing money is just not an option for some of you. That’s fine. All streams and services at RP are open to everyone, and we will do everything in our power to keep it that way.
To begin, a great rant about the music industry.
Ive decided that if I really want this PP idea to get off the ground, Ive gotta start simple. If I limit it to just the audio files that audioscrobbler can already handle, the rest of it should be pretty easy and not difficult to test. And yet it would still help to address the problems of the music industry and independent audio podcasters.
Let me explain how this would work.
Artists create a website where all of their music or podcasts are free to download and without restrictions like DRM. Then, the artist registers as a creator at publicpatron.org. This involves telling PP where on the artist’s site to find their audio files, and telling PP how to pay the artist. In order to verify this artist has access to the website they claim is hosting their content, they must also host a file listing their PP creator id where they host their audio. Then, if they want to get support for their creations, their listeners need to set up an account on PP as well.
The system depends on listeners’ willingness to support artists, but PP makes this as painless as possible and encourages a pro-consumer and pro-artist movement for digital media. When listeners register with publicpatron.org, they set up a monthly donation of at least $5 and then download and install a plugin for their media player. This monthly donation is then divided among the creators registered with PP whose work the listener listened to that month, as reported by the plugin, based on time spent listening.
Publicpatron.org provides the tech and financial support to make this happen, bundling listeners’ donations to artists based on time listened to an artist’s works. PP is a non-profit organization, whose sole existence is to provide and extend this system of artist support. While it may need some additional funding to take off, the plan is to support the system solely on the interest made on the donations after they leave the listener account and before they reach the artist, perhaps two months. The hope for the future is to extend the system to ever more media players and video files, handling streaming files eventually. With the increase in accessibility of mobile broadband, the goal is to make most media open and independent.
But this requires people to support artists even as they get their creations for free. Will they? Would you?
“What we want, when we want it, and where we want it.” – Cali on Geekbrief.tv
We have an amazing opportunity here.
The internet is not only the perfect distribution system for text and images, but also for audio and video. The main problem is how to fairly reimburse the creators of all this great content, while maintaining the open nature of the internet for those of us who just want to watch or listen. What we need to do is accept that the internet is the perfect system for the free distribution of content, and fans are gonna need to find a better way to support the creators of the stuff they love if only for the selfish reason that they want more of it. We don’t need another service or method to store or distribute content, but we do need a new way to support artists that is internet-friendly.
My idea is to create what amounts to a universal tip jar. It would consist of a media player plug-in like audioscrobbler, a web site, and a non-profit organization to run it and promote it. On the website, you could create either a fan account or a creator account, or both.
Basically, fans would be encouraged to set up a fan account on PP (publicpatron.org), and attach to it some monthly donation. They would then download and install a plug-in in every media player that they use. The plug-in would track how much time the fan listens/watches each media file/stream. That information is then regularly transmitted to the web site, which totals the time spent watching/listening to all media for that individual fan for an entire month, and then divides their total monthly donation among the creators of those files/streams based on percentage of time each file/stream was watched/listened to.
Of course, that leads to creator accounts. Creators are encouraged to create a creator account on the site, listing their files/streams and giving the site information on how to distribute them funds.
I believe that by investing the money between the time it is donated by fans at the beginning of the month and distributed at the end of the month to artists, the entire service could be paid for without taking a bite out of the fan getting money to the artist. I think being a non-profit is important to encourage transparency, minimize costs, and discourage competition that might break the system.
If you would like to help make this a reality or have any suggestions, leave a comment below.